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 Why not advise Aversive Techniques on the Net

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Steven_L
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PostSubject: Why not advise Aversive Techniques on the Net   Thu Mar 04, 2010 4:20 pm

Spent a few minutes writting up an article about some other consideration about advocating aversive methods. I mainly focused on two points, the skill required to use them and the manner in which people use them and accept them. Hope you guys like it!

http://dog-notes.blogspot.com/2010/03/why-not-advise-aversive-techniques-on.html#more

Feel free to comment here or at the blog (you can blog even if you aren't logged in)

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PostSubject: Re: Why not advise Aversive Techniques on the Net   Thu Mar 04, 2010 8:47 pm

well rounded argument Steven. As you know i am a whole hearted advocate of reward based, nothing in life is free, training. I believe it is far more effective in the long term.

BUT........

IF all other methods fail and an owner has to resort to aversion techniques for safety reasons (snake aversion, attack prevention, car chasing etc) then they should do so minimally, replacing the aversion with reward based techniques to affirm the correct behaviour as soon as becomes possible.
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PostSubject: Re: Why not advise Aversive Techniques on the Net   Fri Mar 05, 2010 6:31 pm

lucysnewmum wrote:
well rounded argument Steven. As you know i am a whole hearted advocate of reward based, nothing in life is free, training. I believe it is far more effective in the long term.

BUT........

IF all other methods fail and an owner has to resort to aversion techniques for safety reasons (snake aversion, attack prevention, car chasing etc) then they should do so minimally, replacing the aversion with reward based techniques to affirm the correct behaviour as soon as becomes possible.

Yes everything has its place, and if in some cases you can't avoid it...well you can't avoid it. But the main focus of modern trainers is not to recurr to it so quickly and to inform the reader of its drawbacks/fallouts.

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Welshtyke
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PostSubject: Re: Why not advise Aversive Techniques on the Net   Fri Aug 27, 2010 9:15 am

I think your article is too simplistic for the width of the topc. There is at present a huge fog and confussion around what is dominance, leadership, & positive and negative reinfocement and punishment. There is also confussion around what is acceptable correction methods and aversive methods.

Dominance and the Alpha Theory is grossly misunderstood, we have had to correct one of our Bassets we got from rescue, as part of the treatment, when she has done wrong she has had the water pistol, stood over and glared at and firm but calm rebuke, time out outside and ignored. When she is good dog she gets all the cuddles etc and all other training is positive reinforcement. In addition to this, which I don't think the dog will comprehend its significance is that we eat first, first through the door, off the furniture etc. to me these are just house rules and the dog will just accept it as such. Is this being dominant I would say not. They are just ground rules you would put down as a leader.

Acceptable correction / aversive methods. There seems to be mega confussion surrounding aversive methods of training and if you look on the net it is not being talked about, and if it is; its in a very negative manner. I feel a lot of people think it is a legacy from the Alpha Dominance theory from which they are trying to distance them selves from. Acceptable correction has got to be included in training since a dog has got know when a behaviour is not acceptable, but it also means that you do not have to be cruel, consequently there needs to be debate on what is considered "humane" in the way of aceptable correction and when to apply it

Below is a seperate article

For new dog owners at the moment and the way we should train/treat our dogs is wholly confusing. Currently there are two schools of thought; there is the classic veiw of the alpha male and dominance theory, on which latest research has cast considerable doubt. This method appears to rely heavily on negative reinforcement, which has been said can create further problems down the line.

The other scenario is one of positive reinforcment where treats are awarded to the dog for doing things as they are asked and to entice. In this appraoch there appears to be no recourse to adverse treatment to correct the dog when it has done something wrong. The danger with this method given that it appears to be a softer approach; consequently if you are not careful, as an owner your dog starts demanding and wants to be leader rather than the otherway around.

Now we have had Belle and Beau (our Bassets) for a few months with a learning curve being a vertical line you begin to realise in practical terms once you get away from the disciples of extremes of the negative and positive you have to try to steer a path through the middle.

With Belle being a rescue we were holding back, and we were sort of waiting for someone to give us the green light to say its ok to challenge her, and resort to firm but fair treatment using aspects of negative reinforcement (ie body blocks, standing directly over her & the good old water pistol) so that she knows when she is misbehaving.

The flip side of the coin to the classic training methods where negative reinforcement has been used and aggression as manifested its self in a dog, I think problems may arise with too much positive reinforcement, where the dog assumes the role of leader, and bosses the owner, leading to bites and growls.

Sorry Steve I think you need to revisit it.




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PostSubject: Re: Why not advise Aversive Techniques on the Net   Sat Aug 28, 2010 1:57 am

Just watching

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PostSubject: Re: Why not advise Aversive Techniques on the Net   Sat Aug 28, 2010 8:38 am

Betterdog4u wrote:
Just watching
lmao
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PostSubject: Re: Why not advise Aversive Techniques on the Net   Sat Aug 28, 2010 9:09 am

I use positive reinforcement to train my dogs. Always have, even before I knew what to call it. All of my dogs (Rotties and Rottie mixes), except the pup I have now, have been acquired from shelters, sometimes minutes before they were scheduled to die. In other words, the ones no one wanted to adopt. I've been filling my home with these dogs for about 30 years now.
Positive reinforcement and consistancy build a bond between the dog and human like nothing else will. I've never had a dog decide that it is in charge of me once training began, although I've had a few that weren't sure what they were supposed to do when they first arrived here. The pup has been the hardest by far to train, or at least to get to a place where I know what I'm going to get when I ask something of him. Focus can be hard to find with a pup. I think the worst "punishment" he's ever gotten was to be ignored when he isn't paying attention. If I take another dog through the agility course when he's goofing off gets him back.
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PostSubject: Re: Why not advise Aversive Techniques on the Net   Sat Aug 28, 2010 6:22 pm

One of the problems I feel that surrounds dog training when considering positve reinforcement, is that the leadership role of the owner appears to be over looked, and is key to this method of training. Ok get the dog to sit, stay etc. but the owner needs advice on their role in leadership, where you as leader leads and not follow the demands of the dog. Positive reinforcement sits quite nicely in our modern politically correct world and I feel there could be problems through its misuse by owners failing in leadership and the dog taking over.

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PostSubject: Re: Why not advise Aversive Techniques on the Net   Sat Aug 28, 2010 8:41 pm

Welshtyke wrote:
One of the problems I feel that surrounds dog training when considering positve reinforcement, is that the leadership role of the owner appears to be over looked, and is key to this method of training. Ok get the dog to sit, stay etc. but the owner needs advice on their role in leadership, where you as leader leads and not follow the demands of the dog. Positive reinforcement sits quite nicely in our modern politically correct world and I feel there could be problems through its misuse by owners failing in leadership and the dog taking over.


I do agree with this and have seen it. And then said owner sometimes becomes frustrated and the whole concept goes right out the window (have come close to this several times myself!). Thinking about different types of leadership or of those that lack the ability makes it evident that some breeds don't suit some people at all. And there are particular dogs of every breed and mix that will take advantage of an owner that doesn't exhibit leadership qualities.
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PostSubject: Re: Why not advise Aversive Techniques on the Net   Sun Aug 29, 2010 4:30 am

We are currently on a steep learning curve with our two Bassets. After much research on the net it is quite clear the "Alpha" theory is dead. However I feel this leaves quite a dilemma, since the dominant element has now gone, and many people including me are not quite sure what replaces it. Notwithstanding this I have done much reading and surfing forums on the net, and am beginning to understand aspects of the leadership role.

Having said this it is easy to get dominance and leadership confused which I feel could cause problems.

The article on the K9 Academy and the 4Paws University are very good.
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PostSubject: Re: Why not advise Aversive Techniques on the Net   Wed Sep 01, 2010 7:21 pm

Unfortunately I'm short on time to write a proper response... however I do intend on getting back to you on this issue, the only thing I can say at the moment that IMO while the dominance theory is dead what replaces it is something more or less similar to a structure of a human family. A parent doesn't have to be constantly be yelling at their sons and daughters to let them know that they know best, similarly just by controling certain resources, building a good relationship, and setting and enforcing clear and reasonable guidelines you establish yourself as a leader (or a parent if you will) naturally...without having to fret about it.

I know that sounds a tad anthropomorphic, but the general idea behind the example is true.

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